Discussion String
regarding the dropping of
Mac, Mc and Ine in
Manx surnames
The Manx Genealogy Bulletin
Board, Beginning November 2004
Original String can be found at:
http://www.isle-of-man.com/cgi-bin/interests/genealogy/bulletin/index.pl?noframes;read=499962
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
I recall reading somewhere
that a 14th or 15th century law was passed to make Mc and Mac prefixes illegal
and that this led directly to the relatively sudden change to C****, K*** and
Q***** surnames.
I can not find this reference anywhere - does anyone know if this is real or
conjecture?
Posted By: Frances
Date:
Are you not thinking
of
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re:
Illegal Manx Mc****** names (
I have always felt uncomfortable
with the accepted explanation of natural surname evolution in this context and
suspect official encouragement if not legislation to remove the Mac prefix. The
history of surname development generally shows that diversity results with
survival of the original name-form alongside its phonetic etc variants - the
relatively sudden disappearance of Mac in the Manx native population looks like
the result of a deliberate act rather than one of linguistic laziness or
convenience.
Politically it would
make sense as the English power-mongers took control over the island and would
have wished to remove the previous (to them troublesome) Irish and Scottish
influences.
On the confusion with
the Norman subjugation of
Still seeking a law
or Lordly edict!
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
I was thinking more
of the Tudor attempted Anglicization of Ireland - esp around the 1570-1600 but
a quick look at my history books doesn’t show any specific attempt to outlaw
Irish names. (There was an outlawing of Welsh around this period - possibly
there names were forcibly anglicized)
However during the Elizabethan conquest of Ireland the Island kept quiet
(though it does appear that the English avoided using the Island even though
Elizabeth had assumed control during the disputed Stanley succession) - the
English (or rather better I think Lancashire) colonization did not, it appears
raise a rebellion until Earl James attempted to impose significant changes in
land holding - this lead to the rebellions in 1640's and 50's. It may well be
that the Mac's were dropped as part of the Anglicization of the Island which
had been going on for about 200 years by the time most surviving Parish
registers date from. It may well be that the overwhelming success of the
campaign in
Posted By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
In Response To: Re:
Illegal Manx Mc****** names (
We don't really know
when Manx speakers gave up using the "Mac" as the records we are
relying on were in English or Latin.
In some cases the Mac
lingered on - e.g. McLeece which survived until the early 19th c Also the names
in MacGil seemed more resilient and only gradually changed from e.g. Mcylchrist
to Mylchreest.
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
A good point Nigel -
those who rule write the records and the history whilst those who don't are
largely invisible to us. At the time of surname adoption Manx and Scottish
Gaelic were much closer to the Irish of the time than the written version we
now accept as 'Manx' - mac must have remained in the vernacular language, even
if it was mentioned less in the official records.
I am not sure I am happy
with the term Anglicization - true Anglicization would have led to me being
called Phillips (as in the Welsh subjugation/assimilation) - whatever,
certainly the process was largely complete by the earliest parish records
(officially) if not colloquially.
Nigel - do you think
traditional place names may be more representative of the people's language
than the surnames in the tax and ecclesiastical records?
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
True we can never
really be aware of what was never written down except that the sequence of
recorded changes usually implies some form of demotic usage.
It is interesting to
note that the 1511/1515 manorial roll is virtually 100% mac/ine for Manx names.
By the 1703 composition book probably less than 5% - I have extensive
transcriptions for Peel where the mac/ine seems to be dropped between 1570's
and early 1600's but at this time most Peel property owners had English names
so bit difficult to draw conclusions. Thanks to Wally Corrin there are some
transcriptions for Arbory which also show a considerable change around the same
period. Whether this was political (forced or otherwise), or a response to
increased communication with England (fears of Spanish invasions, Irish
military expeditions etc) I don't know - certainly judging from wills, reported
court cases the ine form appeared to last much longer in reported demotic
speech.
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re:
Illegal Manx Mc****** names (
What I find
particularly interesting is that ine and mac are often used in conjunction with
the (accepted) Manx form of the Mac**** hereditary surname, probably indicating
that both situations exist during this period, i.e. the change to C, K or Q in
the hereditary surname, but the continuation in language of the reference to
parent or clan. For example there are instances in the early manorial rolls of
different forms of my ancestral surname together: mac Killip, ine Killip,
MacKillip and Killip - presumably the earlier forms of mac /ine Phillip had
been replaced by this time.
If 1500-1570 is the
period of change, and if there was a law, edict or whatever it is likely to be
around the time you identify in Peel/German. Perhaps something may be found in
the
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
There are no
All Manx Statutes are on-line (look at Mills 1821)
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re:
Illegal Manx Mc****** names (
Not all the family's
papers were destroyed at Lathom surely - some pre Civil War must have survived
elsewhere - at Knowsley for instance?
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
there are some that
survived in various families associated with the Stanleys - the 3 vol Stanley
Papers published mid 19th century by Cheetham soc were those that survived in a
servant's family but the Stanley family papers are sorely missed - likewise the
deliberate bonfire of family papers mid 19th century at Milntown probably took
away much of Manx history
By the way, Knowsley
was not the home until restoration - look up my site - Lathom was the
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/people/lords/lathom.htm
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re:
Illegal Manx Mc****** names (
So, the closest record
to an anti Irish surname law we have of is the 1429 Tynwald Court restrictions
on the residency of Irishmen, Scotsmen and other aliens - and its repeal in
1696 (aside - they must have assumed that the 1690 victory in Ireland would end
all unrest - little did they know!).
If this official
attitude existed before the religious wars in
Presumably Mac*****
names were acceptable again after 1696 and fresh Irish and Scottish immigrants
were able to retain their hereditary surnames without hindrance.
Still, I would like
to find where I read that a law banning Mc***** names had been passed. True or
false, when I rediscover the reference I will let you know.
Posted By: Greg Kaighin
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
Just a thought. No
one has brought up the 1547 Scottish raid on Man as a possible impetus for the
dropping of Mac/Ine. Perhaps popular sentiment after this event may have caused
the Manx to disassociate themselves from their Scottish past.
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: 1547 Scottish raid (Greg Kaighin)
Do you have a
reference for this 1547 raid?
Posted By: Greg Kaighin
Date:
In Response To: Re:
1547 Scottish raid (
"An Illustrated
Encyclopedia of the
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: 1547 Scottish raid (Greg Kaighin)
I wonder if he
confused raids on Scotland by Manx (certainly I can't find any other reference
to such a raid in that year) - see www.manxnotebook.com/jmmuseum/d012.htm
for a couple of Manx Mac’s raiding Galloway in 1513 so possibly the Bride folk
were justified in expecting a return match on home ground - Nigel has
summarized the Anglo Scots wars well - the Earl Edward was heavily involved in
the peace settlement of 1550 see www.manxnotebook.com/people/lords/edward.htm
Posted By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Greg Kaighin)
The King of Scotland
was resident in Kirkudbright in July 1457 & sent a vessel to the
In 1507 Thomas Earl of
According to legend,
the residents of Bride "ate their pudding before their broth" so that
they had eaten the most substantial part first if there was a Scottish raid
& they had to rush off to fight, thus missing part of their meal.
In 1547 the town of
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
the repeal (along
with other tidying up acts) was mainly to encourage trade - there were still
advantages in being a native - vide the complaints in 1750's by George Moore et
al that too many were being naturalized - especially irksome for George Moore
was that several of these were Roman Catholics (he has been described as
something of a protestant bigot!)
(Re Irish names a
google search found http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~homespun/spsnames.html)
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
Found what is
possibly your source - Irish the 3rd article of statute of Kilkenny 1367
(according to most it had little or no effect (see http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T300001-001/
for text)
Posted By: John-Caine
Date:
In Response To: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
Leslie Quilliam's
book "surnames of the Manks" notes that "...the erosion of Mac
had taken place by the beginning of the 17th century, when the recording of
Baptisms, Marriages and Deaths began." I wonder if the Clergy had begun to
omit the Mac prefix in their registers and if this became the norm.
I understand that
there was a tendency to eliminate features that indicated a Manx or Gaelic
origin and the dropping of Mac from a surname might point to a more highly
thought of English origin.
A similar position
was involved with speaking Manx Gaelic. In times past some parents who were
bilingual took care that their children did not speak Manx. This was convenient
if the parents did not wish the children to know what was being discussed but
they actively discouraged their children from becoming Manx speakers. However,
the effect of this was to promote the Anglicization of the next generation and
this was considered a status symbol.
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (John-Caine)
The conscious
dropping of Manx language began I think post revestment when any jobs (mostly
off
Leslie may well be
correct in his surmise - certainly in the early registers one sometimes sees
names such as ylchreest which never did drop the Mac thus possibly indicating a
conscious decision - however somewhat strange that all vicars/curates did so at
about the same time - and certainly not all Vicars were 'English stooges'
Most other records
also start around 1580 though Lib Placit I think has material from the century
before though how much I don't know. In
the list of names of the Keys (though there appears a gap for the key years
1507-1585) and the Deemsters the mac seems to be dying out by c.1550
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re:
Illegal Manx Mc****** names (
Oh the tantalizing
gap - with apologies to London Underground 'Mind the gap' takes on a whole new
meaning.
Cromwell has much to
answer for!
Posted By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
In Response To: Re:
Illegal Manx Mc****** names (
The Official Roll of
the Keys is fairly inaccurate up to 1700. It is possible to assemble the correct
names for much of the period, and there are a very few lists for the mid
sixteenth century as well as the garbled names appearing on the Statutes.
I cannot lay my hands
on my paper file, but will post the list for the 1550's as soon as I remember where
it is!
Cheers
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
Arising from the
earlier thread on mac**** surnames, but lost somewhere in the process, was the
issue raised by Nigel of the official records being in Latin or English and
probably not too closely representative of the language of the Manx people at
the time.
The early Manorial
rolls seem to be the most representative 'translations' of phonetic Manx for
personal names in that they contain ine and mac as words separated from names
and acting as origin descriptors - often in conjunction with what we now accept
as a Manx surname. This mirrors naming practice in
Did colloquial Manx
speakers continue with ancestry descriptors in the spoken language? - were
people referred to by traditional name forms in addition to their 'official'
names? The recordings of the last native Manx speakers suggest that this was
indeed the case in some rural areas until the mid 20th century.
I would be interested
in hearing of any specific examples in your family of such practice from the
17th century and more recently.
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Manx - the people's language (Ian Killip)
There is an example
quoted in www.manxnotebook.com/famhist/families/radclff.htm
His great grandson was the well-known schoolmaster of Andreas, William
Radcliffe, whose patronymic "Billy-Harry-Jemmy-Jem-Hom-Voar-y
Sundher", is a remarkable example of how the country people preserved the
long records of their descent and incidentally proves the connection of the
'Voar' branch with the other Sundher families.
In the early Manorial
rolls (I can only vouch for German) the name was generally Mc Craine or similar
with the c raised above the line to indicate contraction - by c.1580 many of
the Mc s were dropped except for the Mcgilchreest type - the mc was in front of
what became the 'classic' Manx surname
Posted By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
In Response To: Re:
Manx - the people's language (
I am trying to think
of examples but there are supposedly surnames where the version used in dialect
speech was rather different - "Colcheragh" for Qualtrough and
"Codhere" for Watterson (McWatter) where do these fit in?
Another point is that
women's names are regularly recorded as "Jony Quine alias Kelly" or just
Jony Quine before 1700, where Quine was her maiden name. Presumably in Manx she
would have been Innee Quine regardless of marital status. After c1700 the usage
in the records flips over and she would usually be "Jony Kelly alias
Quine".
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re: Manx - the people's language (Nigel G. Crowe)
This is one of the
enduring attractions of genealogy - the only clear thing is confusion! The Anglo
Manx dialect may be more important in this area than the Manx/English issue -
particularly in the rural communities.
Posted By: Frances
Date:
In Response To: Re: Manx - the people's language (Ian Killip)
be careful here as
though there was an obvious dialect based on both Gaelic language patterns
taken across to English with local pronunciation + choice of words, the key
publication Anglo-Manx dialect was also written with another agenda in mind
other than mere factual recording of late 19th C usage - see articles in CMS
archive.
Posted
By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
I
take your point Nigel, but they are a small number compared to the C, Q and K
Manx surname patterns. Has anyone managed to trace the MacYlxt, MacKyle,
Macilvorrey etc ancestral lines back through this period?
Was
the Mac actually part of the heriditary surname or was it still denoting 'son
of' - I note some Ilchrist surnames for baptisms of daughters in the early
German parish registers whereas sons at this time were entered as McYlxt -
these may be different families, the minister's preference in transcription or
the same family.
Just
a simple question: could it be that all the Mac*** names were converted to C, K
and Q*** names in 14-15th centuries through legal/social/autocratic pressure
and that these represent a new wave of immigrants or religious conversions.
Evidence either way anyone?
Posted
By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
I
can only speak for the Mylchreests where my Ballaharra lineage is proved back
to William McYlchreest of Kerrowgarrow, German, died 1644. Earlier there were
McGilchrists living on the German Abbeylands (e.g. in 1540) who are probably
the same line but presently unproven. In 1513 there are a few McGilchrists and
an Ine Gilchrist in Lezayre.
For
the date when the Manx Mac Names became hereditary, see Prof. R.L. Thomson's
article in the Proc.I.O.M.N.H. & A.S.
It all has to do with when the forenames were current. For example in 1511/1513
many men were called by English or Norman names like John, Thomas, Robert,
William, Edmund as well as Gaelic ones like Finlo, Donald, Mold &c
If the patronymical names had formed that late we would be like Wales with a
preponderance of surnames formed on John William Robert Thomas i.e. Kewin,
Quilliam Crebbin & Camaish instead of the enormous spread of names
incorporating pure Gaelic or Norse forenames which were well out of use by
1511. These include names such as Cathain > Cain: Cannanain> Cannon:
Caisin> Cashen:Luathod> Clague: Anghois> Creer: Sveinn> Quine: all
the Thor names & so on.
This is all fascinating. It would be good to plot the distribution of the
surnames in 1511/1513/1540 to see if there were particular areas where the
names stemming from Gaelic, Norse and Norman names were clustered. You could
look at the McGil names too, but I think they are just as "Manx" as
the others formed on Gaelic stems.
Obviously there are lots of Manx names formed on the Gaelic fornames which were
still popular in 1511 - Kinley, Cannell, Cubbon + you could see if they had a
different distribution. Just as a taste in Baldwin almost all the name were
formed on obsolete Gaelic names - Quine, Kelly, Cowin, Lewin, Creer, Cannon
altho' there were exceptions.
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
You are right - it is
fascinating... and just out of reach!
I have thought that a
logical analysis of the manorial roll surnames in space and time might produce
something useful. If it has not been done by when I retire, it would be a worthy
task to keep active on - at the moment I have my spare time cut out trying to
service the Killip worldwide clan's genealogical interests.
I'll raise it with
CMS- perhaps they know of a PhD student seeking a suitable project.
Posted By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
It's not really out
of reach - Frances has the 1511/1513 Rolls on line & I have the whole of
the south and German indexed for 1540 ready to upload to my site once the
transcription is complete + the monograph on the Abbeylands has appeared in
print.
For Greg's benefit I
should have added Eachain to the Gaelic forenames which had fallen out of use
before the sixteenth century.
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
By out of reach I
meant pre-1511 - the absence of records earlier than the Manorial Rolls means
we can never be sure what happened to the names before this - it can only be
conjecture unless someone comes up with a miracle.
Genetic analysis
might eventually be precise enough to identify migrations though the ages, but
it won't be much help on names.
Posted
By: Greg Kaighin
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
Eachain
(or Hector) as a forename is news to me at anytime before or after 1511 in the
Isle of Man. Have you seen it mentioned anywhere?
Posted
By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Greg Kaighin)
Greg
MacLysaght
derives the Irish MacGahan and Gahon from Eachain
Kneen
derived the Manx Kaighin from Eachan, a horseman; Thomson gets it from Eachunn
- whatever the difference, defining it as a "traditional Gaelic personal
name" - and Moore from Eachan saying it means a knight or horseman.
The
fact that we have never heard of the forename Eachan or Eachunn reinforces how
long ago the Manx surnames must have formed, which is the thrust of Prof.
Thomson's article. He thinks they may have become fixed by 1376.
How
do you see the derivation of your name?
Posted
By: Greg Kaighin
Date:
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
Nigel,
It's something I'm actively working on and I haven't come to a conclusion. The
Kaighins most likely come from the MacEachan clan of
Ann
says she has some documentation that shows the grant for the land or something
along those lines.
So
if they came from that clan MacEachan, and I have little reason to doubt it,
then that clan's history has been cronicled back to 247 AD, when its
progenitor, Eachain invaded Galloway from Ulster and established his
"Duthus" there. The last chief of Clan MacEachan, John Alexander
McCaughan, in a report to the Heraldry of Ireland claimed that the Manx
derivitives of MacEachan, i.e. Mac Cackin, Caighin, Kaghin, etc, were members
of the clan.
The
following is a list of possible derivatives of MacEachain with its first documented
use and source. Keep in mind this is a work in progress and no conclusions have
been made.
Greg
247
Eachain Ulster and Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1100
Auchanson Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1100
McCaughin Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1100
McGeaghan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1100
McCaughan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1100
McEachain Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1143-1214
Mecachin Carrik (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1150
McKahon Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McKeechan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
MacGachan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McGagen Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McKeuchane Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
MakGachane Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McGachand Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McKechan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
MacAychin Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McGaichan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McKeuchane Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McAchin Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McGauchane Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McKaghan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
Mcakeon Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McGaughan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McKachan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
Mccachan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McGeachan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McKaychin Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McGathan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1150
McCaghan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1153-1165
MacEachain Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1153-1165
McCaughan Galloway (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1200
McGachen IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1200
Cahanson IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1200
McCaughan IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1200
McCahan IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1200
McKahan IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1200
McKaighan IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1354
de Cakan IOM (W.W. Gill, 3rd Manx Scrapbook, 1963)
1400s
MacAkoen IOM (W.W. Gill, 3rd Manx Scrapbook, 1963)
1422
McCaighen IOM (Mark Anthony Mills, “The Ancient Ordinances and Statutes of the
Isle of Man”, 1821)
1417
Mac Haughan IOM (A. W. Moore, Manx Note Book Vol 2, 1886)
1418
McGaychin IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1418
Cackeon IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1422
Mac Caighen (A. W. Moore, Manx Note Book Vol 2, 1886)
1505
Makachyn (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning and
History”, 1946)
1505
Macachane (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning
and History”, 1946)
1506
M’Cachin Ardmuchy (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1506
McCachin Colonsay (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1508
Makachyn IOM (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning
and History”, 1946)
1511
MacCaghen IOM (A. W. Moore, Manx Note Book Vol 2, 1886)
1513
MacCaghen IOM (W.W. Gill, 3rd Manx Scrapbook, 1963)
1528
M’Quuichin Dalquhat (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1532
McAuchin (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin, Meaning and
History”, 1946)
1540
M’Gauchane Edinburgh (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1543
M’Aychin Huntlie (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1605
M’Kouchane Kintyre (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1586
Kaighin IOM Kirk Michael parish records.
1611
Kaighin IOM (A. W. Moore, Manx Note Book Vol 2, 1886)
1611
Kaighan IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1614
McAchane Islay (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1630
McKeighan IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1630
Cagen IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1635
Chaginge IOM (W.W. Gill, 3rd Manx Scrapbook, 1963)
1643
Caighan IOM (A. W. Moore, Manx Note Book Vol 2, 1886)
1643-1745
McCaghan IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1643-1745
McCaughern IOM (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1650 McCahen Ireland (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1667
Kaighan IOM (A. W. Moore, Manx Note Book Vol 2, 1886)
1677
Kaighin IOM, German Kirk German parish records
1692
McKukan Nether Lorn (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1696
Kaighin IOM (W.W. Gill, 3rd Manx Scrapbook, 1963)
1700
McCaughran Ireland (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1700
McGahan Ireland (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1700
Kaighan Ireland (John Alexander McCaughan, 1981)
1702
Kaighing IOM, German Kirk German parish records
1721
McEachan Erchles (George F. Black, “The surnames of Scotland: Their Origin,
Meaning and History”, 1946)
1736
Keiggeen IOM, Rushen Rushen parish records
1745
Caighin IOM (A. W. Moore, Manx Note Book Vol 2, 1886)
1756
Kaighyn IOM, Malew Malew parish records
1786
Kaghin IOM, Malew Malew parish records
1793
Kaghen IOM, Malew Malew parish records
1806
Caighin IOM, Ramsey Ramsey parish records
1824
Kaighan IOM, Douglas Douglas, St. George parish records
1826
Kaigher IOM, German Kirk German parish records
1834
Keigin IOM, Douglas Douglas St. Mathews parish records
1844
Keign IOM, Arbory Arbory parish records
1845
Kaghan IOM, Ballaugh Ballaugh parish records
1857
Kaighein IOM, Ramsey Ramsey parish records
1872
Keighen IOM, Lezayre Lezayre parish records
Posted
By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
Monday, 22 November 2004, at
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Greg Kaighin)
You've
done some good research here - we could do with this much data on all the Manx
Names & we might begin to get a clearer picture.
Prof. Thomson seemed to think Eachunn would likely be quite a popular forename
and could give rise to the patronymic anywhere in the Gaelic speaking area, but
you adhere to the single progenitor theory for the time being.
Posted
By: Greg Kaighin
Date:
Monday, 22 November 2004, at
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
For
clarification, the theory was Chevelier John Alexander McCaughan's. I won't
conclude anything without proof and the only real way is to DNA test several
males with a derivitive of the MacEachan name. There is one other notable
MacEachan clan not related to the Manx Kaighins. They are the MacEachans of
Clanranald of MacDonald and are descended from Eachann MacRory, born c.1450,
the second son of Roderick (Rory) MacAllen, third chief of ClanRanald of
MacDonald. They held lands in Moidart and Ardnamurchan. Since Kaighins showed
up in Man prior to 1100, the myth that Kaighins are MacDonalds is rubbish. If
you go online to any of those Coat of Arms or "fast fact" genealogy
sites, Kaighins are listed under MacDonald. Its unfortunate that I've heard
other Kaighins say they thought this was true and some have died thinking this.
Posted
By: Elizabeth
Date:
Monday, 22 November 2004, at
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Greg Kaighin)
While
not having been a contributor to this thread to now I would like to include
some work done on the history of the name Qualtrough... not by me however.
While
not as extensive perhaps as the work done by Greg and others on Kaighin, all
helps on gathering information on Manx surnames as Nigel said.
It
can be found at the following link.. the article by James Linton (September
1983) was also published in an IOMFHS Journal of that period.
http://www.freewebs.com/qualtroughgen/originofthename.htm
Posted
By: Greg Kaighin
Date:
Monday, 22 November 2004, at
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
Do
you have this article you mention somewhere?
Posted
By: Ian Killip
Date:
Monday, 22 November 2004, at
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Greg Kaighin)
R.L.Thomson
Aspects of the Gaelic-Norse Controversy: Manx Personal Names and General
Vocabulary Proc IoMNH&AS ix #2 pp145/155 March 1984
Posted
By: Ian Killip
Date:
Monday, 22 November 2004, at
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Nigel G. Crowe)
Nigel,
Peter thinks it would be a massive project to do properly, but worthwhile if we
could obtain funding to recruit someone with Latin expertise to transcribe and
analyse the Manorial Rolls. Are you interested in the three of us discussing
the possibilities?
Posted
By: Ian Killip
Date:
Monday, 29 November 2004, at
In Response To: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
Trying
to refresh some of the discussion arising from the earlier Illegal Mc****
surname debate: Nigel Crowe and Greg Kaighin (22nd September) had an
interesting debate on this string about the origin of the Kaighin surname. Greg
reports on research suggesting that the Manx name originated from an
Irish/Scottish clan that can be traced back to Ulster in the 3rd Century.
This
is a fascinating subject - have any of the other Manx surnames been traced to
similar origins through Irish and Scottish records?
The
different forms of patronimic surnames may have originated from separate waves
of migration - e.g Gaelic name origins to a wave of Irish immigration in
3rd-8th centuries, Scandinavian/Irish/Western Islands immigration 9th-13th
centuries, and Scottish immigration 13th-14th it seems that all of these were
prefixed with Mac by/during this time as heriditary surnames were adopted under
Scottish/Norman influence for taxation/land ownership purposes.
During
the period of the Stanleys 1405-1660 heriditary surnames were universal and all
of the Mac***** names seem to have been transformed to C, K and Q (except for
Macyl*** etc) forms by the mid 16th century. These were supplemented by
military and administrative immigrants with (largely) Lancastrian surnames.
Post-Restoration
the Manx surnames remain recognisably static (apart from spelling variations)
and new immigrants appear to retain their original heriditary surnames.
Does
anyone else have any genealogical evidence to refute or support this?
Posted
By: Frances
Date:
Monday, 29 November 2004, at
In Response To: Clan and Migrant origins of Manx surnames (Ian Killip)
Canon
Quine (he of of the unquenchable belief in a Roman occupation of Man) had a
theory about the clan system - see www.manxnotebook.com/iomnhas/v01p053.htm
The
late Rex Kissack had a go - see www.manxnotebook.com/famhist/v01n1.htm #9-14 as did the famous PMC Kermode see www.manxnotebook.com/iomnhas/v01p477.htm
House
of Keys c1554++
Posted
By: Nigel G. Crowe
Date:
Saturday, 4 December 2004, at
Further
to discussions on Manx surnames I have edited & posted 3 early lists of the
Keys which are different from the material in Moore's REoll of the Keys. Go to http://www.manxroots.com/keys/openup.htm
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
Tuesday, 14 December 2004, at 9:26 a.m.
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Frances)
Thanks to all the contributors to this discussion. The
message from Frances Coakley on 13th November came closest to answering my
query on a Manx anti-Irish/Scottish law along with her assessment that the
dropping of Mac prefixes seemed to happen in the 1570-1600 period in the
records.
We have given the subject a decent airing and it looks
like this is as far as we will get - but I live in hope...
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
Tuesday, 4 January 2005, at 2:26 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
In
response to my own original message, and adding to Frances's note on the 1367
Kilkenny Statute, my recollection of reading about a Manx Law must have refered
to an Irish Law and was probably Kneen's reference to Statute of 5 Edward IV
(1465) in his Introduction to Personal Names of the Isle of Man.
If anyone
is interested, further info on the 1465 Law can be found on the WWW, for
example, the following extract from AN ESSAY ON THE ORIGIN AND IMPORT OF FAMILY
NAMES by William Arthur:
"In
the year 1465, in the reign of Edward the Fourth, it was enacted by statute,
that every Irishman dwelling within the English pale, then comprising the
counties of Dublin, Meath, Lowth, and Kildare, in Ireland, should take an
English surname.
"At
the request of the Commons, it is ordeyned and established by authority of said
Parliament, that every Irishman that dwells betwixt or among Englishmen, in the
county Dublin, Myeth, Uriell, and Kildare, shall goe like to one Englishman in
apparel, and shaveing off his beard above the mouth, and shall be within one
year sworn the liege man of the king, in the hands of the lieutenant, or
deputy, or such as he will assigne to receive this oath for the multitude that
is to be sworne, and shall take to him an English surname of one towne, as
Sutton, Chester, Trym, Skyrne, Corke, Kinsale ; or colour, as White, Black,
Brown ; or art or science, as Smith, or Carpenter ; or office, as Cook, Butler;
and that he and his issue shall use this name under payne of forfeyting of his
goods yearly till the premises be done, to be levied two times by the yeare to
the king's warres, according to the discretion of the lieutenant of the king or
his deputy."-5 Edward IV., cap. 3.
In
obedience to this law, Harris, in his additions to Ware, remarks that the
Shanachs took the name of Fox, the McGabhans or McGowans, that of Smith, and
the Geals the name of White. In consequence of this statute of Edward, many
Irish families were induced to translate or change their names into
English."
Ref: www.searchforancestors.com/surnames/origin/essay.html
Perhaps
the situation in Ireland had an influence on the Manx surnaming patterns as the
Tudors and their allies took up positions of power in the Island, and possibly
leading to the formation of the C, K and Q Manx surnames from Mac**** names in
the 1515-1570 period.
Maybe
someone can find a similar Manx or Irish Law for the 1515-1570 period which may
have had direct influence?
Posted By: Ian Killip
Date:
Tuesday, 4 January 2005, at 2:35 p.m.
In Response To: Re: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
and
again, the influence of the 1465 Statute on the New England Colonies
From: http://search.ancestry.com/db-irish/P19.aspx?
"There
are indications, because of the manner in which certain surnames were spelled
by recording officers, that historical writers were led to believe that all who
bore them were English, though, as a matter of fact, some of these people were
Scotch or Irish. Among the Irish, there are many families of the old native
stock whose names give no indication at all of their racial origin. This was
the result of the operations of a law enacted by the English Parliament in the
year 1465, under which families in Ireland living within the Pale, by which the
territory then within the military jurisdiction of England was called, were
compelled to change or disguise their names, or adopt names after trades,
occupations, colors or places. Outside the Pale, this law was not effective.
This Act was entitled:
[p.50]
An Act that the Irishmen dwelling in the Counties of Dublin, Myeth, Uriell and
Kildare, shall goe apparrelled like Englishmen and weare their beards after the
English maner, sweare alleageance and take English surnames. The wording of the
Act was, in part, as follows: At the request of the Commons it is ordeyened and
established by authority of said parliament that every Irishman that dwells
betwixt or amongst Englishmen in the County of Dublin, Myeth, Uriell or Kildare
..... shall take unto him an English surname of one towne, as Sutton, Chester,
Trym, Corke, Kinsale; or colour, as white, blacke, browne; or arte or science,
as smith or carpenter; or office, as cooke, butler; and he and his issue shall
use this name under payne of forfeyting of his goods yearely till the premises
be done, to be levied two times by the yeare to the Kings warres according to
the discretion of the lieutenant of the king or his deputy.
Heads of Irish families resorted to different methods of complying with this
law. Some dropped the Mac or O, and in course of time their names were further
disguised by dropping or inserting a letter or a syllable; others, putting a
literal construction on the law, took names that were entirely foreign to or
had no resemblance whatsoever to their Irish patronymics. But the more frequent
method was to translate their names into their English equivalents. Thus we can
understand how a native of Ireland bearing the name Smith or Johnson, for
example, can be of as ancient Irish origin as if he bore the original family
name, MacGowan or MacShane, whose literal meaning is the son of the smith or
the son of Shane or John, respectively. A great many instances of similarly
translated names can be cited. "
Perhaps a
similar effect on names occured in the Isle of Man.
Posted By: Greg Kaighin
Date:
Wednesday, 26 January 2005, at 3:48 a.m.
In Response To: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Ian Killip)
Juan Codere has
weighed in on this subject via email to me. He's given me permission to post
this to the board, so the next couple of posts are our email correspondance.
Greg
Having just looked
through your message board, I note there is a question relating to the
interplay between the colloquial version of names and the official version.
Re Watterson, whatever
the reasons for which it was translated (if it ever was cf perhaps norse
influence at the time it was first recorded when the island was not at all
universally anglophone, far from it), it would seem that Mac Water/MacWatter/
Mac Uaitéir just followed the natural tendency which prevailed in relation to
all C, Q and K names irrespective of the fact that Watterson in the anglicised
guise was gaining a foothold as the official version of the name. Various
explanations as to why the name was translated are not very convincing since
the number of English speakers was not very high at the relevant times and
there were plenty of occurrences of Mc Water still around. So that side remains
a bit of a mystery. That said, if Wattersons were always known in the spoken
language as Koderes/Codheres/Coderes/Kodheres, the gaelic version of this anglo
normand name, perhaps originating from Ireland, seemed to be fully alive.
If it can be accepted
that the Mac Water version was pronounced with emphasis being placed on the end
of the name ie mac Water (see Kneens?? book on surnames with a section on
colloquial pronunciations when explainging Codhare) , when the mac became
eroded, we would have imply retained C'water.
In the manx names book by Quilliam under the Qualtrough entries, we find
Quatter which should perhaps be in the Watterson section beneath. On the basis
of this exemple, the name in its late spoken gaelic form was recorded (at least
once). For C'water to be pronounced Kodere, we have by way of comparison the popular
pronunciation of Qualtrough (Colcheragh) where the "ua" sound seems
to have been slurred over to produce and "o" sound.
I have the name Kodhere (manx passport) and the name Codere (on my French
passport). I switched back to the manx version (I am 100% manx, for what that's
worth). My son, born in 2001, is the first official Kodhere/Codere to be around
for centuries.
Regards,
Juan Codere.
Posted By: Greg Kaighin
Date:
Wednesday, 26 January 2005, at 3:51 a.m.
In Response To: Illegal Manx Mc****** names (Greg Kaighin)
From Juan Kodhere:
My paternal great
grandfather Watterson was married to a Qualtrough (my great grandmother).
Re the erosion of Mac into C, Q or K, I don't think it was anything more than
phonetic attrition especially when the language supporting these names was
gradually loosing its grip to English and written records in it would not have
been particularly prevalent. Given the likely elision of the Mac element of the
Mac names in spoken style, it does not seem surpising to me that , like in all
spoken variants of languages, there developed differences which when recorded
in writing in the context of names (being, with respect to manx gaelic, the
only necessary recordings in a non written language for land tenure purposes)
represented the pronunciation of the people declining their identity to
officials (most likely no longer galelic speakers). In fact, to illustrate this
point, the elided pronunciation of manx names was actually like in Juan y
Kodhere where the "y" element perhaps represented the phonetic stump
of Mac thus becoming in pronunciation "urk".
Well, it's a suggestion, anyway.
Tarah for now,
slane lhiats,
Juan y Kodhere.
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Submissions, corrections or suggestions kindly received by the editor at kaighin@iname.com Portions Copyright 2004, 2005, Gregory D. Kaighin, All rights reserved |
